Dogs at the Table

...or to put it another way, "Perish, priest!"

Monday, June 28, 2010

Is it just me?

I think I've become a curmudgeon. Maybe it's age-related grumpiness. Maybe it's ongoing frustration with institutional systems and patterns of thought. Maybe it's the time of year.

I went to a church service last night: "A Celebration of New Ministry." It's one of those services of the church where a new incumbent is welcomed into the parish, where the covenant in ministry is publicly presented, and a milestone in a parish's history is marked.

Here is what I don't get: the "new incumbent" had been in the parish for a year, so there was nothing really novel about the appointment; the "new incumbent" was a non-resident priest on a half-time appointment; and finally, the covenant that was produced made no recognition of the constraints of a half-time position and used old language that stated that the role of the congregation was to support the rector in his/her pastorate.

This is an absolute failure to recognize that the gifts of ministry are already fully present in the community of the baptized. The priest brings with him/her the sacramental and sacerdotal charisms related to ordination, but in a real baptismal ecclesiology, it is the sacraments that sustain the congregation, not the congregation supporting the sacraments.

This ongoing failure to recognize that the role of the clergy is to support the ministry of Christ as expressed in the local community should be obvious. But for whatever reason, bishops, archdeacons and other senior clergy continue to let congregations away with abrogating their real responsibilities in ministry, and allowing clergy to usurp "ministry" as their own.

Even from our own local diocesan e-newsletter, let me quote the following:

If it weren’t for Lay people who would listen to those interesting sermons? Who would put the coffee on for coffee hour? Who would sing the new hymns? Who would teach the children? Who would raise the money? Who would help plan the programs? Who would take the Church out into the world? Who would mow the grass in the cemeteries? Who would keep our books? Who would create our bulletins and parish newsletters? Who would help the clergy visit the sick and shut-in? Who would help the priest with our new and exciting liturgies? (from the press release for the 2010 Legacy Fund for Lay Ministry)

This language patronizes and diminishes the community of the baptized, whose only role now is to validate the priest by undertaking mundane tasks or being on the receiving end of sermons and liturgies. Why isn't the community of the baptized crafting these sermons and liturgies? Why are the baptized to teach children and not adults? Why is the initiative to visit the sick and the shut-in the prerogative of the clergy and not the community's? For what purpose is "the money" being raised?

And so I end up at this celebration of new ministry characterized by a wholly inadequate covenant in ministry, flawed ecclesiology, and incompetent liturgy (that's a whole different rant).

Yup, I've become a curmudgeon.

Today's weigh-in: 232 Something to smile about.

Friday, June 11, 2010

So what?

I've enjoyed the experience of Synod. But this last day has left me unsettled.

The more distance I have from the "Agreed Statement" the less impressed I am. I asked my bishop if the phrase "Full Inclusion" means access to any sacrament after Baptism for gays and lesbians (including marriage and ordination). She said, and I quote, "It can be interpreted that way in each place, I think."

Does that mean here and now? Does it refer to election and ordination as bishops? Somehow I doubt it.

Then there was the Anglican Covenant.

I have made no secret of the fact that I have no desire to be bound by the constraints that the covenant describes. I live in fear that it will alienate me from my American brothers and sisters in the church if we don't play by Canterbury's rules. I am furious at the Anglican Communion Office for their "shot across the bow" as we were meeting in Synod. And I am concerned that the fatigue that coloured our actions this afternoon will have consequences that we shouldn't have to live with. After some amicable debate (nobody said anything remotely controversial), we passed the motion to receive and give study to the covenant text with a recommendation to General Synod 2013 (although the recommendation could be not to accept, I suppose -- the motion is not directive). A second motion was presented advising us not to accept the covenant until after its acceptance in the Church of England. Although the Resolutions Committee and Advisory Group said the motion was in order, the chair (ie. the Primate) ruled it out of order, stating that we need only concern ourselves with Canada, and that this was not about the rest of the communion.

Sorry, ++Fred. It is precisely about the rest of the communion, and were it up to me, I would not even begin to consider it until England and a numerical majority of the provinces of the Church had adopted it. Canterbury is already acting as though it is in force, and therefore we have nothing to lose by deferring any decision about the matter. There is so much ignorance about the ecclesiology of the Anglican Church in Canada and throughout the world, that deference would, in fact, give us some opportunity to teach about the nature of who we are as a family of faith.

I attended Eucharist with the Integrity community at suppertime (this is a gay-positive movement within the church). I have been associated with the Pride organization for years, and have (had to) represent the Diocese a number of times over the past few years. Each year, I apologize for the Anglican communion not giving equal consideration to Gays, Lesbians, Transgendered and Bisexual members of the church when it comes to marriage or ordination. I mentioned to the Bishop that I hoped she could be at the Pride events this year, because I was tired of apologizing for our church. She said we had nothing to apologize for. Look again, bishop.

The loveliest part of the day was Evening Prayer. Ardyth and Jennifer, celtic harpists and troubadours, accompanied a Celtic expression of the evening office. When I evaluate General Synod, the worship in the gathering is a high point.

A poorly organized reception followed in a warehouse sized space, and I ended up at a local pub for high starch and carbohydrates late in the evening.

Today's weigh-in: ? I can't imagine pub food at 11:30 can be good for me.

Thursday, June 10, 2010

The seventh day is not Sabbath

I'm blogging live from the floor. Probably a violation of protocol. Nevertheless...

Well, we’re in the midst of it – the statement has been presented, particular language highlighted, and we will accept the statement for what it is. There is something in it for everybody, or to put it another way, you can find whatever you want.

The remarkable thing is that both liberal and conservative voices have spoken in favour of the statement, which may be some indication of grace. I don’t know what the future of the blessing and sexuality debate (and action) will be, but I’m certain the editorial writers will find a whole lot to say.

For me, it is a snapshot of a moment in time, and as one speaker said, “I’m gonna have a whole lot of ‘splainin’ to do."

And on the Sixth Day a statement was created

As of 8:40 this evening, I am officially grumpy. Part of my disgruntlement comes from the content of the "Synod Statement on Human Sexuality" ( ) and part of it comes from the process, which presented the statement a mere twenty minutes before the deadline for resolutions. In my heart of hearts, I don't think this was deliberate, but geesh, couldn't we have had a little more time to sit with it?

The statement is a "keep talking" piece of work. There is no common mind (as if...!). There is an unpleasant affirmation (that I don't believe to be held by as many people as the statement implies) that we are "passionately committed to walking together, protecting our common life." When it says we "affirmed the full inclusion of gay and lesbian members in our churches," the nature of full inclusion is not defined. Tomorrow morning we begin with a motion to affirm this statement. And so I am officially grumpy. The sheaf of resolutions coming forward in the morning with regard to human sexuality should be interesting.

As a footnote to all this, and in reference to yesterday's post, Kearon was at the bar tonight. I left provision with the bartender to put a drink on my tab and let him know where I was seated, because I was prepared to ask whether the actions of this General Synod would affect the employment of Alyson Barnett-Cowan (the staff person for Faith and Order at the Anglican Communion Office). That seemed to be the tenor of the letter to the communion -- "Look what we did to the Americans: if you don't play by our rules then jobs will be lost." I guess I'll have to do it on the floor tomorrow.

But there was more to the day than that. After our morning devotions, Anthony Mancini, the Roman Catholic Archbishop of Halifax greeted us (and then lectured to us) about Anglican Roman Catholic relations, making specific mention of our having to remain in the larger Anglican communion. I appreciated that he didn't speak in the coy language of diplomacy, but I really wasn't in the mood to be instructed by him.

The last part of the morning was spent in our second discussion group around human sexuality and the blessing of same-sex unions. It did not go particularly well, and we ended with an air of suspicion and hostility (largely directed at the facilitator and recorder). I heard a significant number of voices affirm some level of local option about the issue, but (as you can see from the statement that doesn't seem to be present).

After lunch, we repudiated the "doctrine of discovery" (see my earlier post). One of the more interesting speakers in favour of the motion noted that The Episcopal Church had done the same thing last year, and that in repudiating the doctrine of discovery we affirmed individual rights and dignity, giving us an ethic and vocabulary for dealing with "imperialistic and colonializing overtures" into our church life. There was an audible "....ooooooooo..." in the house.

The loveliest part of the day came from the Aboriginal Peoples of the Anglican Church. As we affirmed their place and ministry in the church, they shared with us the journey to their unique and full place in the Anglican Church of Canada. Lydia Mamakwa was welcomed as in indigenous area bishop; the various councils reported on how they were growing as part of an Anglican Indigenous Council, and presentations were made to those that had helped craft the statements and legislation that allowed them to reach this point in their history. One of the most delightful moments came when Mark Marshall (indigenous bishop), realizing that their time allocation was drawing to a close, stated that they were working at warp speed -- in their culture, it usually takes all day just to say "hello."

I am going to spend the rest of the evening reflecting on "the statement." If I can simply take the words "full inclusion," it is sufficient, but somehow or another, I don't think that language is what will endure.

Last year, our Diocese engaged in the Intentional Listening process at our Diocesan Synod. I was responsible for collating the responses to the question about what do people hope or fear about the future of the Anglican Church. The overwhelming fear was that in 20 years, we'd still be talking about how to include gays and lesbians in the life of the church.

We are well on the way to realizing those fears.

Today's weigh-in: ? I wonder how much bull-s**t weighs?

Wednesday, June 09, 2010

Where there are three or four Anglicans, you can often find a fifth...

Today was a delight: there were no resolutions; we had a banquet (more about that in a moment); it was a gorgeous day for walking (which I did–from St. Mary’s to St. Paul’s Church, then from St. Paul’s Church to Pier 21 for the banquet, then from Pier 21 back to St. Mary’s); there was a brilliant presentation from the Anglican Youth called Roots Among the Rocks (sponsored by Huron College and Ask & Imagine – an Anglican Youth Initiative) this morning; the Presiding Bishop of the Episcopal Church addressed us; we elected representatives to the Council of General Synod (hereinafter CoGS); we elected the deputy prolocutor of General Synod; and we laughed.

Despite the shadow of Canon Kearon’s missive cited yesterday, we received a summation of the first of the human sexuality/blessing of same-sex unions hearing without rancor. There is, however, this weird feeling like Kearon farted in the room and then left without acknowledging the smell. I am still angered that he would attempt to intimidate us and the outcome of this Synod. And I am not the only one. There is a motion coming before Synod that we table the receiving of the Anglican Covenant until such time as it as been received by the Church of England.

Roots Among the Rocks was the best Christian drama I have ever seen. I do not gush easily, and there is simply nothing to be cynical about. Five young actors moved from vignette to vignette about peoples’ encounter with Christ, or the Church, or God, or relationships or their life. The talent was unassailable, the message unrefutable, the presentation engrossing. An hour and twenty minutes of the day slipped by and we didn’t notice. It is the only part of General Synod so far where I have seen every window, monitor and gallery position filled with people watching.

The Presiding Bishop of the Episcopal Church addressed us before lunch. I have some acquaintance of Katharine Jefferts Schori, and (with respect) found her message tame. She spoke of the shared common heritage of the Episcopal Church and the Anglican Church of Canada, but did not address the tensions in the Anglican Communion nor the daring expressions of the Holy Spirit in the Episcopal Church. But it was nice to see her. I guess.

This afternoon we shared Eucharist at St. Paul’s Church on the Grand Parade in Halifax. I really don’t like being grumpy about worship, but this just didn’t work. A 1749 building with a balcony supported by pillars in the nave has crappy sight-lines if you are anywhere but in the centre of the nave; the acoustics are awful and given the nature of the music (multicultural with an emphasis on Swahili) accompanied by piano, two violins, flute and African drum, unsuccessful; the use of projected material on screens with no reference for musical line inhospitable; from my position no visual access to the readers or presider. Significant liturgical oops.

But it was redeemed by the banquet. Beautiful music from Ardyth and Jennifer (Celtic harp and voice), a lovely meal (General Synod has not hurt my palette), and, ending the evening, a riotously funny comedian, Bill Carr. Framing his comments around Philippians 4:8, Bill had the whole assembly weeping with laughter as he explored how it is we interact with others and what is truly important in life. It was a perfect intermission in the middle of eight days of General Synod.

Today's weigh-in: ? I hope the walking is doing me good.

Tuesday, June 08, 2010

Day the fourth

Let me start at the Gorsebrook Lounge (where the evening socials take place). Before General Synod, there were several articles published about some of the issues that were coming before this body of the church. One of them is the Anglican Covenant – a document describing relational attributes of member bodies in the Anglican Communion. The Archbishop of Toronto, Colin Johnson, had written a rather favourable piece. I am not so enamoured of the document. I responded in print to Johnson’s article. Anyways, he and I were at the same table at the bar. We were having a great chat about many things (I grew up in Toronto). He was about to leave, when I disclosed who I was, pointed out that while I disagreed with his article, it wasn’t personal and bought him a beer. Lex orendi, lex credendi, lex bibendi.

The evening was spent dealing with resolutions about church governance. The proposal was that Easter attendance be used to craft the formula for determining proportional representation at General Synod. One clever delegate asked that it might be a three-year average of Easter attendance given the inclemencies and vicissitudes of the Canadian climate. A beautiful service of light (Taize chant, evocative language of prayer) concluded the evening deliberations (although I am not convinced that electric tea-lights are very high on the symbolic index).

The afternoon was spent in assigned discussion groups (around the sexuality/blessing issue), and specific interest areas. This was a lovely change of pace from the deliberations and presentations of the morning. The smaller numbers provided an intimacy for conversation that obviously cannot take place in plenary, and more direct contact between members.

The morning was curious. After our morning devotions and bible study, there was a presentation by a group called Fresh Expressions who challenged us to think about how the church will minister to a changing community, demographic and institution. This was followed by a gracious address by Kenneth Kearon, the General Secretary of the Anglican Communion. He noted that the Anglican Communion is who we are and not some etherial “other” kind of church. Sadly, although unbeknownst to the delegates at the time, his words were followed by brutally blunt actions as outlined in a letter from his office:

My response to his question, is, “wait and see.”

I may raise a point of privilege in the morning. I am offended that the governing secretary of the Anglican Communion would presume these actions before we have finished meeting.

Kearon is not getting a beer from me.

Oh, and by the way, we approved with no debate, a more decisive and missional role for the Primate in the church (there’s a whole bunch of ecclesiology involved with that with which I won’t bore you – it was a good thing).

Today's weigh-in: ? ...but beer good.

Monday, June 07, 2010

And on the third day...

Today was a mixed day – Synod business in the morning, the 300th Anniversary Service of the Diocese of Nova Scotia and Prince Edward Island in the afternoon, and then dinner with the bishop and spouses this evening. Indifferent, bad, good, in that order.

This morning was a presentation introducing the debate about human sexuality. It included the methodology and differing points of view from the Primate’s theological commission, a reiteration of the House of Bishops’ statement from 2007* (where the part about Baptism was curiously omitted), and an update on where many of the Canadian Dioceses are at this point. One of the speakers reporting on diocesan dialogues with African dioceses was supposed to be Michael Ingham, bishop of New Westminster, whose diocese was the first in Canada to permit the blessing of same sex unions, but he was unfortunately not present. I am still not satisfied that there is any acknowledgment that the continuing “gracious restraint” and “ongoing dialogue” is at the expense of a constituency of the church who are already making enormous spiritual sacrifices just to affiliate with the Anglican Church.

The second part of the morning was the first information session, called a “Port of Call” continuing the Nautical theme of the Synod. These are opportunities to explore in depth the work and reporting of national church committees and structures.

The afternoon was the 300th Anniversary Service of Celebration for the Diocese of Nova Scotia and Prince Edward Island at a local arena. Clearly a great deal of planning had gone into the service, but there were some critical gaps in thinking. A series of acted out vignettes about episodes of diocesan history were by times lacking in sensitivity, although quite well presented. The musicians (a keyboard, brass band and mass choir) were just barely strong enough to lead the several thousand people in the arena and might better have been a praise band, who would have had enough amperage to be heard. Maybe even getting a decent electronic organ for the day with suitable amplification would have been better. The language in the hymns was atrocious – triumphalistic, gender dominated masculine texts, and nothing from any canon of youthful music – and was where I checked out spiritually. There were some beautiful moments: the liturgical dance that served as a reflection on the texts, the danced procession of the Gospel, and the good will of the gathered diocese were quite lovely, but in comparison of the opening liturgy on Thursday night, paled considerably.

Our bishop hosted the synod delegation at local restaurant. It was the best part of the day. Several spouses were present, and helped keep the conversation from lingering on churchy matters.

Still, I’m glad I’m here. I don’t think we’ve gotten to any of the really contentious stuff, but from what other synod veterans have said, this is an excellent gathering in comparison of many in the past.


Today's weigh-in: ? Supper was fabulous.

Sunday, June 06, 2010

General Synod, the Second Day

While my day personally was punctuated by pastoral responsibilities at home, we are starting to grind away at the business of Synod. The day began with a Bible Study in our Galley groups, followed by community building exercises. My Galley group (a table group of eight people, balanced men/women, clergy/lay and geographically diverse) turned out to have a decent quartet of singers who, during one of the cooperative challenges, rendered the doxology in a credible fashion as something to do while waiting for something else to happen.

The Bishop of Jerusalem, Suheil Dawani, addressed General Synod this morning with a follow-up less formal presentation to take place on Monday at lunchtime. Like many public figures -- our primate included -- the level of candor during an internet-streamed public forum is different than one might expect in a more casual setting.

The afternoon brought with it the second presentation on Vision 2019, with a free-form question and comment session. There was some curious language emerging during the comments including the notions of leaders and followers. From my perspective, I would prefer language like leadership and community. The other afternoon presentation was about financial matters. I glaze over when it comes to financial stuff -- I don't deal well with money in my own life, and leave things like taxes to my partner to submit -- but this afternoon the financial stuff was presented with a remarkable clarity about accounting practices and definitions that even I understood it.

After supper, we sat for two further presentations (50 years of the Primate's World Relief and Development Fund, and Youth initiatives). Not the most scintillating, and, at least to my mind, illustrated why a good media consultant can make presentations more engaging.

We concluded the evening with Jazz Vespers. A trio (piano, drums, electric bass) framed some parables of Jesus with a bit of cool, and even this cynical critic was captivated. Worship as entertainment is not a path I'd like to travel very far, but this was a lovely ending to a very long day.

Except for drinks at the Gorsebrook Lounge.

Today's weigh-in: ? I have the impression that my ass is getting bigger from sitting all day.

Friday, June 04, 2010

The First Full Day

The day started with the usual morning devotions and a bit of singing. People were welcomed and credentialed, guests were recognized, and then the community building began. A professional firm had been contracted to transition us into the corporate identity from our individual or diocesan "selves." You could sense the hesitation when people were asked to invent secret handshakes or share stories of favourite meals with repeatedly different partners, but it didn't take long before we all had learned the drill and were making new friends and acquaintances every two minutes.

From 11:00 'til noon, the Primate gave his "presidential address" (cf. state of the union address, speech from the throne, charge to synod). Some parts were predictable -- mission statements, vision imperatives (or vision quests), governance issues. But the best part was when ++Fred offered a sternly worded caution about the Covenant, illustrating the hypocrisy and double standard that is already in place, and clearly indicating his dissatisfaction with the tone and direction of the covenant.

Unfortunately this was offset by a rather lukewarm response to the human sexuality question, where he clearly indicated that we will remain in the kind of ecclesial limbo that masquerades as diocesan autonomy. Yes, we're all tired of talking about it, but until the church defines how it sanctifies and blesses those who are called to many different configurations of family life, we will continue to live in a dysfunctional "don't ask, don't tell" world.

The afternoon was spent, first with a sales pitch on Vision 2019 (a national awareness program based on the 5 Marks of Mission ( Great video production at the beginning; some sentimental testimonials; some general encouragement to engage with the neighbourhood and the world around us. Unfortunately, it will take more than "greening our churches" and a bit of creative programming to transform us into a mission minded church.

The remainder of the afternoon and evening dealt with governance issues, specifically related to the size of General Synod and the size of the Council of General Synod (aka. Executive Council in TEC parlance). The debate was punctuated by procedural wrangling, statements of suspicion and distrust, and (with respect to those charged with a difficult task) insufficient information about the consequences of passing the motions to make it impossible to carry the resolution about the size of General Synod as it was presented. The Primate, after counted votes by orders, declared the motion "lost," which just seems a bit careless on the part of the presenters. Interestingly after supper, they came back with a plan to re-present the motion with additional information on Monday. Stay tuned!

The funniest part of the day came with the hymn that began the evening session -- Guide me, O Thou Great Jehovah. The old chestnut was introduced by the piano player who clearly had a much faster tempo in mind than the 300 people singing. But the piano player persevered, and the dirge desired by the assembled multitude, in then end, was a joyful hymn of affirmation. But the first verse was a curious quodlibet of tempi!

Today's weigh-in: ? This body still hasn't found the gym on campus.

Thursday, June 03, 2010

Synod, the first day.

There really was a sense of anticipation as delegates gathered, connected and reconnected with friends and new friends from around the church. There was an orientation session, tours of the University Campus, the first of many shared meals, a host of volunteers helping to make the transition into a conference as easy as possible, and, just maybe, a hint of the Holy Spirit.

Of course being local didn't make coming to St. Mary's Campus all that special -- we're in dormitory rooms with four (or more) people sharing one toilet and shower (in the same single bathroom) which will make for some interesting lineups in the morning. There are great long walks around to get to the meeting space, and quite a good cafeteria service.

The highlight of the day for me was the opening liturgy tonight. If you've read some of my other posts, you'll know that I'm fussy about liturgy -- it is the primary expression of the corporate life of the church -- and the barometer of my engagement with the people with whom I'm present.

It was, quite simply, stunning. Paul Halley, one of the foremost church musicians in North America, now lives in Halifax. He brought his parish choir who were brilliant -- the Howell's Te Deum at the beginning of the service and his own arrangement of Rise up, my fair one were transcendent. The hymn playing and visual symbolism of the sails made me choke up several times. The sermon by Bishop Tamayo (Uruguay/Cuba) was an extended riff on the metaphor of the vineyard, gently introducing the notion that from time-to-time painful pruning may be part of what is expected as a follower of Christ. One of the readings was in French, and the Prayers of the Faithful were delivered in six or seven different languages. The experience was profoundly moving, and even at my most cynical I am willing to concede that it is liturgies like this that open my heart and make me think that all persons can be welcomed here.

The social followed -- de rigeur for the Anglican church. There is an old adage: lex orandi, lex credendi -- as we pray, so we believe -- to which I would add: lex bibendi -- so we drink.

Today's weigh-in: ? There are no scales but justice at General Synod.

Wednesday, June 02, 2010

Primates Playing Ping-Pong

The Archbishop of Canterbury, the Primate of all England being one of his official titles, issued a note to the Communion on Pentecost. I didn't particularly like the tenor of that missive, in that he holds out for a conservative orthodoxy, using as his authority Jesus' descriptor of the Holy Spirit who would reveal all truth.

He curiously omitted the daring actions of the Holy Spirit repeatedly manifested through the Acts narrative. This was especially true when the Church needed to grow into places that were foreign and different from the Jewish existence that had been so much a part of the first apostles' experience. Peter himself had to be reminded that it is not up to human agencies to define what is acceptable to God.

Enter Katharine Jefferts Schori, the Presiding Bishop of the Episcopal Church (United States), a primate by any other name. Today she returned ++Rowan's serve with a volley of her own ( noting that the Spirit seems to be healthy and vibrant in the lives of many gay and lesbian Christians.

She also notes the sinister convergence of authority that is being constructed in the response to the Windsor Report and the emerging Anglican Covenant. In its place she cites the sacrament of Baptism as holding Anglicans in a common bond of recognition, which theology I heartily support.

This week at General Synod, ++Fred our Primate will have an opportunity to return ++Rowan's lofty serve -- in Ping-Pong, you want to keep the ball low to the net -- the Archbishop of Canterbury's serve was a high bouncer, and I hope that ++Fred will take the opportunity to smash it back (using genteel language, of course) as ++Katharine has.

Today's weigh-in: 234 lbs. No Ping-Pong here.

Tuesday, June 01, 2010

The List Gets Longer

My head is in this really odd place -- normally when I go away, I'm going far enough that I can't just come home at night. Not that I'm planning to, since given the length of meeting days at General Synod, it makes more sense not to have to try and deal with crush hour. But I can't seem to get through the to-do list, since I know that if it doesn't get done I can always run home at night and finish it.

Laundry, funeral arrangements, two bulletins, dinner with the ACW, program mailing all done. Still no decision about how much of the circular to print. New computer battery should be in town tomorrow. Display materials for Education for Ministry table have arrived.

And then there's the don't forget list: pet care, answering machine message, clean the house, set up the church for the funeral on Saturday, buy wine, try to arrange for services in two weeks when I'm away on another matter...

Maybe what I really need is an administrative assistant. Or a curate.

Today's weigh-in: 234 lbs. Consistency after two days doesn't really count.